Why study the conservation of historic buildings? | with the University of Bath
This week we're joined by Dr Jonathan Foyle from the University of Bath to discuss their Conservation of Historic Buildings MSc. We cover the difference between conservation and restoration, climate change and working towards a sustainable future, and the countless career paths available
Participants
- Emily Slade - podcast producer and host, Prospects
- Dr Jonathan Foyle - Historic buildings lecturer, University of Bath
Transcript
Emily Slade: Hello and welcome back to Future You, the podcast brought to you by graduate careers experts, Prospects. I'm your host, Emily Slade, and in this episode, I speak to Jonathan Foyle from the University of Bath about their Conservation of Historic Buildings MSc.
Jonathan Foyle: Well, my name is Jonathan Foyle, and I teach Conservation of Historic buildings at University of Bath. Or Bath, if you want. Depends how posh you are.
Emily Slade: So, to begin with, if you want to just give a brief overview of the program itself.
Jonathan Foyle: The MSc Masters in Historic Conservation at Bath. It takes place in the Department of Architecture, Civil Engineering and each of the MSC's that's offered around Britain has a unique situation. Might be archaeology, others, media but bath. It tries. To be a very broad. Course, so its position in architecture, civil engineering draws in the skill sets from those teaching staff, and so you learn about project management, you learn about structures and but also and what I specialise in is the humanities side of things. So where does conservation come from? What does significance mean? What about the history of the built environment? How do we know what we're looking at and all of those questions I've always found fascinating. So my background was studying architecture, but then. I did an A Masters degree in art history and PhD in archaeology. Because it's it's like a never ending quest, really. You know, you can understand buildings, but then you realise that only a certain number of buildings are left and some of them partially survive. And each one of those has information so. We begin the. Course by teaching you how to look and how to think about conservation, and then you build the skills as you go through. Yeah.
Emily Slade: Cool. So when we say conservation, we're talking about keeping things as they are. Would you say that that's fair?
Jonathan Foyle: It's a it's a frequent assumption about conservation is that we're trying to make time stand still, you know, or pretend that nothing's ever happened or. Return a building to its original state named like renovation and conservation are often interchangeable, but they're they're dramatically different. Actually, when you think about the renovation is to make something new. Again, conservation isn't about that. It's not about pretending time stands still. If you were to crystallise it, you have to say it's to make smart decisions about managing change. Change is inevitable, but there's good change and there's bad change, you know, amongst the most drastic things that can happen to a building is collapse or neglect, and suddenly you see how if maintenance. Doesn't happen. Buildings can really accelerate in their decay. But you find a really. Good user of a building which might otherwise. Be neglected. You might have fallen out of out of use. It might be surplus to requirements, but you get a good user who's got imagination and the building can enter a really interesting new phase in its life. I mean like us all you know, we all evolve, we all change and buildings do the same thing. They just need care and planning. So what we? Each. How to make good decisions? What are the components of really good conservation? How do you? Combine things like a business plan and something called a CMP, a conservation management plan to enable you to think for the future and to plan strategically and cost effectively and make the best of historic buildings because. Once they're gone, they're gone and you can't get them back. But often a really smart set of decisions. Can completely transform them.
Emily Slade: So in a way, conservation is like every theatre space that's turned into a Wetherspoons.
Jonathan Foyle: Well, Wetherspoons I suppose is one form of conservation. Yeah. If you think about King's Cross. It was authentic in its way. There were lots of gas cylinders there and in in post industrial landscape, but it. It it wasn't open to anybody, you know, it's fenced off and weeds and trees were growing in there and it was. It was. It was just. Sad and forlorn and derelict. And you know there there can be a certain magic in those post industrial sites I suppose. But in the middle of a city you want places to be. There are millions of people who live in this place and pass through this station every year. So the way that the King's Cross was transformed wasn't simply by putting a pub in it. It was by building new infrastructure, creating new routes through this site, using the canal that was always there and having books. Sold on barges, for example, and seats down to that canal and new shops and new businesses, there are jobs for people. All that's part of the conservation landscape. So yeah, I mean clearly you need a pint somewhere, but we need more than that as a as a, as a culture.
Emily Slade: So the type of student that's going to take this course, what's their background going to look like?
Jonathan Foyle: We have students from all kinds of backgrounds. You might be an architect, you could be a historian, you might be a humanity student. Maybe you do geography and just want to change or something. I mean, I know so many art historians. Came out of law. Because the prospect of just trying to take advantage of people was too much for them and they wanted beautiful things instead. So look, the MSC conservation, you can have lots of different backgrounds because in fact it is a very broad course if you like legislation. Then if you come from a law background, fantastic or if you're organised, or maybe you like the humanities part, and if you're a historian, you'd, you'd enjoy that. If you're a scientist, let's say you did biology or chemistry, and you're interested in things like lime on buildings or pigments, or the analysis and treatment of wall paintings, that kind of stuff. You can use those skills and build them in. So the way that the course is structured is to allow you to. To. Bring your background to find a specialism in a certain area and then we'll help you to look for those vocational outcomes and make the best of where you've. Come. From it is a really broad church, and that's what makes it fascinating, because you're constantly learning from people with different kinds of skills than yourself.
Emily Slade: Hmm. So what kind of careers? Would people that take this programme? On today.
Jonathan Foyle: So conservation is. It happens around the world, but in different cultures, and those cultures have different kinds of government bodies, different sorts of trusts, for example, and charities and public engagement with conservation. So. We have students that work, for example, with the Indian National Trust for Art and Archaeology, and that's very different to our National Trust. It's more of us of government over a body that overseas sites we have someone who runs the conservation body in Canada. Someone who works in the Saudi government oversight and each of those will have a different kind of culture because. Their legal frameworks will be different. The kinds of buildings you're talking about between, let's say, Saudi Arabia and Canada are obviously gonna. Be totally different. And so those skills. Are often quite localised, but when you break it down in England it's particularly rich. I mean, one of the countries along with the United States, there are many others, but we are one of the founding countries of the conservation move. So we have a very well developed National Trust, you know, 5 million members is something quite extraordinary in comparison with our population size, right. So there there are lots of jobs in the National Trust, English Heritage and Historic England are two sides of the same coin that run sites, but also provide oversight, things like listing. Conservation offices, supervisors of design in urban areas and countries. As well. But then there are lots of charities who are set up because of things like the the lottery funding that the UK has. So our special conditions have this very big, broad rainbow of work with conservation and each of the projects that might be commissioned by those bodies could have someone like a paint analyst. Who tells you? What layers of paint you're building had overtime, you know, on a forensic level, that kind of work is fascinating. You might actually come from a building background and do this. I mean, I'd really love for building companies to to have some of their staff, whether it's project management staff or some of their skilled builders, to join us for a year and really build up that sensibility. And what conservation is and you can. You could do it from any part of the world because you take the framework that we give you and then apply it to your local needs through your innate interests. So last year. One of my students was a Saudi student and he loved mud mud architecture in Saudi. Most of it's gone now, but the Saudi ministry has recognised that it's. It's precious and needs to be looked after, and he took a lead on it. So his he chose for his dissertation and analysis of Saudi mud brick building. And it was really insightful. It was a very thorough job, you know, and he made his contacts and he demonstrated his work. And he went back to Saudi and immediately employable. So it's a it's a really rewarding thing and. Yeah. My stage of career. I've had lots of different kind of jobs over the 80s over the 80s. I say it just tells you something. I've had lots of jobs over the years, I'll say I own things like media and as a curator at Hampton Court working on Canterbury Cathedral as a consultant, I still do consultancy, so I really want to. Help train a new generation to think smart and and get gainful employment in the conservation sector, so that's the reward for me is to see students. These places. And they surprised me because, you know, around the world, you know, they, they they teach. Back. So I get a lot out of it.
Emily Slade: Yeah, I imagine the skills are quite transferable as well. And you talked about consultancy work. I imagine you're useful if a film needs to check in on a building that they're making it look great and things like that.
Jonathan Foyle: Well, I'm lucky to and I know people who work for film companies in finding good sites for film locations. You know, those those places that are well conserved and they know them and they know that things like the windows are correct. There's so many films that get made in Bath.
Emily Slade: Yeah.
Jonathan Foyle: You know, and the windows all bright white, and if you're a nerd like me and you say, well, titanium white only happened from the 1920s, So what do you mean, Mr? Darcy, you know. It it doesn't. Really work, but so be people who are expert in understanding the built environment and what it should look like in, let's say, Turners England for a film to be made. So yeah, you can have lots of different. Places within within conservation you can use, for example, historical skills and analysis if you want to be a consultant for people who own listed build. Things. And you may like the charm of an old building, but you might be petrified by the idea of needing permission to make changes. But if you've got a good consultant on your side, they will understand the building for you and they'll arm you with reports that show to any conservation officer that you understand what it is and are sympathetic to it. And that understanding has informed. Your proposed changes? Mm-hmm. How can people argue against that? And why would they? I mean, they're just pleased to see that level of understanding. So that kind of work can be diverse. It can keep you in business, you know, for for many decades because as we say, change will happen and it's about enabling it. So there's so many good jobs to be had and some of them you write for yourself.
Emily Slade: Yeah. And touching on that and touching on the idea of the future. Is sustainability something that you focus on a? Lot as well.
Jonathan Foyle: Conservation is at the forefront of sustainability, and the University of Bath Architecture Department prides itself on sustainability in architectural design. But clearly one of the most sustainable things is not to wreck what you've already got. It's an act of humility as well. It makes us appreciate what we've got, and we live in such a throwaway culture that if we can retain even something like a, let's say, a small terraced house has as much energy in it. As would take you. To drive around the world in a small car. And the firing of bricks, the transportation of timber, all of that embedded. G. Shouldn't be wasted in a hole in the ground, you know, just requiring more carbon to be burned. So just keeping things is a major act of conservation we're also. Looking at very low impact maintenance. You know, doing the least necessary to keep the place and the way that it is and using materials as well of natural origin that can be replaced and can be repaired rather than demolished. I mean, one of the obvious differences is the swathe of upvc windows that are in houses. Up and down. The country and it's poisonous to manufacture and you can't repair it. So what happens? You actually ends up with Skip, just both being maintenance free and the catcher there, is that it means you can't repair it. So it starts to weather bare aluminium turns back into bauxite. The powder that aluminium you know is is made from and. Things will decay, things will change, and if you can't repair them, it means they're skipped. They're junked after 20 years. But if you've got natural materials you can piece in small parts like a timber post. If it rots a bit at the bottom, well then splice a piece in you know, and that gentle care looking after what we've got. That's really important, but another aspect about historic buildings is that, again, they're at the forefront of energy thinking. Because they're difficult. Let's think about a church where you've got a big volume, and if you put the heating on, all the heat goes straight up to the roof and the roof can't be insulated because it's 15th century timber, big windows. What happens then? You get this great cycle of hot air going up cold air coming down from the windows. And that you can't feel the place heated up and you spend hundreds of pounds on. Heating. Well, in the last few years, infrared has done a big job. In rethinking how we heat people and infrared heaters are radiant, and so if you direct rays at where people are, it's like feeling something like a warm spring day. It's like sunshine. Infrared is essentially the wavelength of sunshine. And it's extremely comfortable and it costs something like maybe 2 sevenths or maybe 1/3 of the amount that you're regular heating. Well, it's not burning oil. You can put it on a renewables tariff. And so suddenly we've got the technology in place and the renewable energy options to make historic buildings work again. Sure, it needs some capital costs, but it's one of the things that we consider. How much would this cost? What would the effect be and and how can we? How can we green buildings so that they are efficient to run. You know a lot of people see them as money pits but but we've got the technology to sign to change that now. And so if if we can produce a generation of people working within renewable. Fantastically rewarding.
Emily Slade: So you mentioned quite a variety of vocations that they could go into. So how do you teach conservation to prepare students towards those outcomes?
Jonathan Foyle:
You know, it's it's it is a challenge to teach conservation on a global scale mean. Imagine getting in a minibus and saying right rot in India. Now look, I will look at Hampi or another great archaeological site. Tell you what. Machu Picchu next week. Get, get, get your boots on, kids. You know it's it's that's.
Emily Slade: That would be amazing.
Jonathan Foyle: It would be amazing it would be, but we do have what we tend to do is we bring in specialists in conservation. So it's not just the staff teaching, it's people who are involved in different kinds of projects on the ground now there are. Many examples of materials like lime and mud building, which are applicable around the world. Adobe building for example, in Latin American countries of using dried mud bricks. And then plastering over them is very similar to thing to what happens in Mesopotamia has done for thousands of years. Or Egypt, for example, or India and people are thinking creatively about how to use such things as plastic bottles, which might go in landfill. As the core of walls that are then surrounded by mud because actually they're really good insulators. There are lots of creative things going on around the world, so materials have this universal quality. Once you know what the chemical makeup is and how they handle, that doesn't change much around the world. You can just think about local applications. Legislation tends to be international, so that the various. Conservation charters that have emerged over the last 100 years pretty much. Are those which countries are signatories too? So there is a global culture of conservation and you can apply those to many different countries. So materials, legislation, the thinking as well, the philosophy behind conservation is something which has contributions from many different sorts of culture and. The habits that some people have with historic buildings. Things that we bring into the classroom to say, have you thought about doing this or taking that kind of approach or what would happen if we turned historic buildings into this? Model of living. Let's say we are, I think in an age where people have access to so much information on the Internet that and our and our climate is. Changing. And we need to learn from other cultures, things like planting with buildings or the behaviour of materials within a warmer and a drier world are all things that we're trying to feed into this discussion. So the answer is, you know, how do we shape vocations globally? Is to teach things which have a universal value to them, and encourage students to think on their terms. You know from the background that they've come from the buildings they're used to. Think about these ideas and then work that into their coursework. In the spring we have a an interdisciplinary project where you combine your learning on history and how to analyse the built environment, archival research and your structural understanding and all of that is combined into one major project where you're working in a team. This year it was a site in Bradford. And Even so, a beautiful historic town. And we're thinking, what? How can we make good interventions in Bradford? And so a couple of sites that people had to think about and one of the issues in that site was that the river is now flooding more than it has before. So how do you make buildings flood proof that can require some quite radical rethinking of what we think conservation is? And I'm sure that any student who was involved in that is going to go back to their own country and think, do you know what? The world is changing around us and we have to figure out how to treat the past to make it fit for the future. So that's how we we we teach it, we think about universal themes and we train people. In issues that are going to have that. Global relevancy.
Emily Slade: Amazing. What's the most interesting project that you've worked on?
Jonathan Foyle: I really like variety, so if I said what's the most interesting project I've worked on professionally, I spent eight years at Hampton Court as building curator there, and it was. A marvellous. Education. So I did my PhD on working out how much had Cardinal Wolsey built. When he was Henry the eighth right hand man and building this place. In 1515, up to 1528 more or less. And then Henry, the eighth took it over and remodelled it took the credit for himself and Cardinal Woolsey's papers ended up on a bonfire in Norfolk in the 18th century, most of them. So the history suits the winners, which have to look through that and figure out, you know, without a lot of the evidence there. How do we look at the building and then figure that out? And that was a huge privilege to to be involved with the building of that. Size and scale and some of you look back on and you know, pinch yourself that you had that chance. So that's great. But on the other hand? More recently I've been asked by people like homeowners. I think my house is older than the listed building. Statement says it is someone has an end of terrace cottage in Hampshire by the coast, for example, and so it's thought of as early 19th century. But I'm pretty sure it's older than that. Can you tell me so I'll go along with my archaeological hat on and a torch and then a camera and notebooks and the rest of it. And peel back the layers and I really enjoy showing people what it is they live with. And why their house has the character it has, and when people would have made changes, because in fact this end of Terrace Cottage was just 1/3 of a mediaeval house. And she lived in the bedroom end to the mediaeval house. And so someone else lived in the kitchen end at the far end, and then the hall in the middle. And once you, once you're up in the attic and you can see this roof structure going through the whole thing and understand why. Because the windows were replaced in the 19th century. Someone doing a drive by said. Well, that's, you know that Lake Jordan house? Getting under the skin even of a small building. Can be really richly rewarding because you know that that's somewhere that they've invested in over the years that they feel special to them and suddenly. It's much more special, you know, and you think about what, how much is, how much does a house cost these days? And it's a phenomenal amount of money.
Emily Slade: Too much, some might say.
Jonathan Foyle: Yeah, but the investment, the modest investment in foil services means no, just it just for not much money. You've actually transformed your appreciation for something which is a major part of your life. And I get a kick out. Of that. So, umm yeah, there's so many ways in which. Work can be interesting. What happens, of course, as a student is you start off building the tools. Students who have question why they're being told things are always interesting because. The next generation always has slightly different ideas and understanding, and it takes that rebellion. To start to question why do we believe what we believe, and sometimes it might reinforce the reasons for that belief, but that the cracks might show and some of the best students of those that say, look, where are the cracks and what happens if we just leave them open a bit and and look underneath there? That's where research starts to find new solutions. Umm. And I'm always interested in students who come to me and say, well, I'll challenge that because, you know, I welcome it.
Emily Slade: Can you look at a building and tell everyone when it was?
Jonathan Foyle: Pretty much.
Emily Slade: That's pretty cool. And when you were at Hampton Court Palace, did you come across the ghost of Catherine Howard?
Jonathan Foyle: Screaming Catherine Howard. Yeah. Who, by repute, thunders down the haunted gallery, hence its name outside the Chapel. Or receiving that bad news? No, actually, the best I can do. And as with as with the previous archaeologists at the time is that. We went upstairs into the oldest part of the palace. Both of us heard a cockerel growing and there are no chickens kept at Hampton Court, but there used to be a scalding house where chickens were put into boiling water to plug their feathers in the Tudor age. Both of us like to think that we tuned into a ghost.
Emily Slade: Ohh ghost chickens.
Jonathan Foyle: Yeah.
Emily Slade: Amazing. So what sort of we've sort of touched on it, but experiences and rewards that make the Conservatives stay interested in their work.
Jonathan Foyle: Yeah, the experiences and rewards. Something akin to what I've just described as the. You don't know what your next project's gonna be, very. Often and even if you're working, let's say for the national trusts or English Heritage, one of the government bodies, or you're a consultant, then what's gonna turn up what's the next project going to be? And let's say you think you know what that project lands only inbox, you say? Oh, for the next 4 years, we're going to be working on completely turning around this great Georgian country house or something into. A new chapter, but there's so much to discover. There's opening up which shows you phases. It may not just be a Georgian house. There may be an older core to it that the Georgian house was built around, let's say, and you're going to be learning about the history of the occupants. How much of the building is authentic and how much. Has been pieced together over the years. You might be looking at things like the decorative history, the colour of the paint work, what's what's remains and what's lost, and how do you mitigate that? Can things be recovered? All of that research is, you know, that's one big part of it. The project management aspect of what are we going to do and why and in what order and where do we get the money from and those kinds of issues and they can be fascinating. If you're project management minded and then how's the thing going to be run and managed and how do we market it, how do we get the word out and and I. Taught. The media side of a conservation for numerous episodes at Bath, I mean, I did one day a year for a decade at Bath because in a previous job I used to be used to run something called the World Monuments Fund to the British branch. So we raised money for sites. So the, the, the way in which you conceive a project. And then how you get the word out and explain what you're doing and build support? That's something I've I've been used to and it's really fundamental. To the successful project is is engaging our community, engaging supporters and making people feel like they can be a part of this positive change. Such a such an important part and. There will be. People who come from a conservation training background, who want to be. Part of that, you know, write the text, build the membership, organise the events. That kind of stuff. It's just another aspect. So. Yeah, even a simple sounding thing is complex, and it keeps you interested because the stages will roll forward and you'll be building on your successes. And then finally one day the thing will be finished and the doors will open and you'll say it went from that into this. And I've played my part in that and I've got to say there are few jobs that are as tangibly rewarding. As transforming the built environment honouring. What what was gifted to us from the past and then actually looking after generations to come? By handing that over in a in a in a form that is useful and beautiful. I mean, what I don't know what else I'd want out of a career.
Emily Slade: Fantastic. If potential students are interested in learning more, can they get in touch with you?
Jonathan Foyle: They can, yeah, via admissions at the University of. So you'll see an MSc course page with information scroll to the bottom to see a film that we've recently put together on site in Bradford on Avon and in Bath Abbey and other at the sites around here. I mean, we're so lucky. For the glorious built environment near Bath and Bristol and Somerset not far from London, but you'll see you'll get a sense of that in the film. If you like what you see. Yeah, do write to admissions and admissions can organise. There's a one to one form if you want to talk to a course convener. You're delighted.
Emily Slade: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for your time today.
Jonathan Foyle: Thank you. Thanks.
Emily Slade: Thanks again to Jonathan for their time For more information on the course, check out the show notes below for our full length video version of this episode, head to our YouTube channel at future Year Pod. If you enjoyed the episode, feel free to leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. Thank you. As always, for listening and good luck on your journey to future you.
Notes on transcript
This transcript was produced using a combination of automated software and human transcribers and may contain errors. The audio version is definitive and should be checked before quoting.
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